The regular meeting of the Planning Board, Town of Moreau, County of Saratoga and State of New York was held in the Town Office Building, 61 Hudson Street, South Glens Falls, New York on June 19, 2006.

Planning Board members in attendance were Chairman Peter Jensen, Ronald Zimmerman, Gary Dickinson, Thomas Field, and Ronald Caulin.

The meeting was called to order by Chairman Jensen at 7:06p.m.

Chairman Jensen asked the Board to review the minutes of the April 24, 2006 meeting.

Under item VIII. Cerrone Subdivision, on page 867 Mr. Mitchell should be Mr. O’Connor.

Mr. Zimmerman motioned to approve the minutes with this correction and Mr. Dickinson seconded. The motion passed unanimously. The May 15, 2006 minutes will be reviewed at the next meeting.

Westgate Estates Subdivision is not on the agenda. Mr. Zimmerman motioned to table the subject, Mr. Field seconded, and the motion passed unanimously.

Public Hearing and Preliminary Plan Review- the applicant is not available this evening. An associate will appear later in the evening for this item.

Chairman Jensen: Saratoga County has decided that there is no significant impact.

Mr. Caulin: Have you applied for curb cut permit, mentioned in the documents?

Mr. Hutchins: Yes, it was applied for and some corrections have been made. Permit is not in hand yet.

Mr. Zimmerman motioned to grant final approval to the site plan. Mr. Caulin seconded.

Roll Call: Mr. Zimmerman-Yes Mr. Field – Yes Mr. Caulin- Yes

Mr. Dickinson -Yes Chairman Jensen- Yes

Chairman Jensen: Motion for signature?

Mr. Zimmerman motioned that the chairman and one other member sign the mylar, Mr. Field seconded. The motion passed unanimously.

Chairman Jensen: The applicant has requested to be removed from agenda for this meeting. Phase II is in limbo until concerns raised concerning the basins at Phase I are addressed, which will probably occur this week.

IV. Leonelli Apartment Complex- Information Only

Chairman Jensen: This applicant was requested to provide some additional information and in particular to meet with emergency services. Mr. Robinson is here to update us. May I have a motion to continue to table the public comment portion of the process?

Mr. Field motioned to table the public comment portion of the hearing, and Mr. Zimmerman seconded. The motion passed unanimously.

Chairman Jensen: Motion carries.

Mr. Robinson: The layout of the site is new. Ability of emergency services to navigate the site was an issue, because they don’t like to have to backup to turn around. A dead end area has been addressed so that it connects back to the main road. There were two separate neighborhoods, and those were connected and a building removed so that there are loops. Mr. Patricke met with the fire chief, and both of them are not available tonight but Mr. Patricke reports that the chief is ok with it. The plan now has notes about emergency access. The area beyond the sidewalk will be kept clear all winter so that there would be access to the buildings next to it. There is a spot where the two neighborhoods can be connected, but this could potentially create a racetrack. It also eliminates the neighborhood feel.

Chairman Jensen: Have you considered a speed bump?

Mr. Robinson: We have. Developers hate to plow speed bumps, but it is a possibility. We would like to know the board’s opinion before we go to much further with changes.

Chairman Jensen: Mr. Patricke did indicate that emergency services was comfortable with the idea and is preparing a letter to that effect.

Mr. Robinson: Do you think it looks better?

Chairman Jensen: I do. Lets poll the board.

Mr. Zimmerman: I do feel it’s better. The other items spelled out in the notes are good too. You have made a good faith attempt to respond to the concerns of the community. Please continue to do that.

Gary Dickinson: I am pleased with it.

Tom Field: I don’t see a problem with it. Will there still be a sidewalk around the front?

Mr. Robinson: There are a few obstacles out there. We have it running on our property, not in the right of way. We may get an easement from the owner of the next property so that we don’t have to snake around those obstacles. We also extended the sidewalk up the other end of the property, not only toward the school. It connects all through the property with crosswalks. There are lights and trees, buffer area landscaping on more detailed plans.

Mr. Caulin: Is the developer locked into this number of buildings?

Mr. Robinson: Not locked into it, but one or two fewer building will not make a dramatic change in the impact. Everything like trash and sewage is handles on site, and there are buffer zones.

Mr. Caulin. The compression of the wetland is going to push the water somewhere.

Mr. Robinson: We have had soil science engineers and a wetlands engineer out there. We are staying away from the wetlands, and the Army Corps of Engineers will look at it and confirm that. They may or may not look at it in person. There will be fill on the site to bring the slabs, utilities and roads out of the wetness. There will be underdrains. Some of the test pits are 8 inches deep, but others are 36 inches. The drains will go into the stream at the end of the property. Once the initial flow goes out, the soil will be compressed and the stream will not stay swelled.

Mr. Field: The underdrains are not part of storm water management plan?

Chairman Jensen: Anything else?

Mr. Robinson: One other thing in your package. Someone asked us to look at the intersection of Main and Harrison. CME sent us a report that says that two legs are excellent, but one leg is not good. When they project the traffic, including the Community Center and development of Sisson Road, over the next ten years, the intersections will not act differently, but it is already poor during peak hours and that would present a continued problem.

Mr. Caulin: That seems hard to believe; 272 units coming out onto Harrison Avenue will certainly change something.

Mr. Robinson: Some other intersections do change, but this one is far enough removed from the site not to be affected. The issue is that the geometry of this intersection is not good. First, not everyone will come toward Hudson Street. People who do will choose different paths to Route 9. Some will anticipate this problem and turn elsewhere. That’s how the level of service will not change. These are DOT numbers. The numbers are usually pretty close. At the public hearing, someone will be here from CME to talk about it.

Chairman Jensen: Any other questions?

(None)

V. The Preserve at Old Saratoga- Sketch Plan Review

Travis Mitchell: We have a 378 acre site on Old Saratoga Road. The plans show a cluster configuration with a homeowners association to maintain lands around a pond. An old farmhouse is being preserved. On the Southeastern corner of the site, a shared driveway was a concern. We have spoken to the National Heritage Association, and there are no known rare species of plants or animals on the site. We have had input from the Highway Dept., Joe Patricke and Jim Ryan, to discuss the shared driveway and the site layout. The revision is 40’total width, 22’ course. A height of 14 feet will be kept clear by the homeowners association. Common maintenance agreement samples are provided for the Board to look at. It will go with the deeds, to provide for the sharing of short and long term maintenance costs for plowing, mowing, and long term replacement of the road. There was discussion in April over the length of the cul-de-sac. We showed a boulevard, which we have cut in length. A 1700 foot cul-de-sac meets the requirements for a dead end street.

Chairman Jensen: Mr. Patricke also indicated that emergency services has reviewed and are comfortable with the layout and will deliver a letter indicating that. They are not in attendance tonight. Are the any comments from the Board? The applicant would like to call it a common driveway, I would like to call it a private road.

Mr. Field: I still would prefer a road, but your proposal is much better than the initial discussion. I question who determines, or what the Town’s say is, in the repair and replacement costs for the road. What if none of the owners want to fix it and they all are content to have a substandard road way?

Mr. Mitchell: We might be able to include a provision for the Town to have the right to inspect the road at will or on a schedule.

Chairman Jensen: What control would the Town have over an individual to require them to pay for repairs?

Atty. Auffredou: That is a concern.

Mr. Field: How could the homeowners association be held to standard?

Mr. Zimmerman: They can be held responsible.

Mr. Caulin: Is this a legal document?

Atty. Auffredou: Probably. I haven’t seen it and don’t know how it’s enforceable. It could be a deeded covenant.

Mr. Caulin: You have a clause about the enforcement, I assume that’s how you do it.

Atty. Auffredou: These things need financial security to make them work, and this is very long term for that type of security.

Chairman Jensen: To entertain the concept, we would have to know about the mechanics built in to keep the road to Town standards. Letting it go would make it impassable for emergency services no matter what the layout.

Mr. Mitchell: We can work with our attorney and the Town attorney for acceptable language.

Chairman Jensen. That will have to happen for it to go ahead.

Atty. Auffredou: We would have to have the equivalent of a regular road.

Mr. Zimmerman: Have you run this by Steve Barody?

Mr. Mitchell: My understanding is that Mr. Patricke did. Jim Ryan also had concerns about the slope of the road and we have measured other slopes in Town to conform with the accepted standards.

Atty. Auffredou: Storm water?

Mr. Mitchell: There will be basins, owned and maintained by the Homeowners Association.

Chairman Jensen: What would the Board like to do, as the question is about the common drive?

Mr. Field: I would like to see an agreement to solve the problems raised.

Atty. Auffredou: I would also like to see a report in the record from the highway superintendent.

Chairman Jensen: Supposing that those items were covered, do you wish to consider this concept?

Mr. Zimmerman: You mentioned that this is not a new concept for you, and you have used this before? Would it be ok for Joe to talk to other towns to see if and how it has worked out for them?

Atty. Auffredou: Yes, it’d be good.

Mr. Field: We have a note from the County on this being contrary to our usual approach.

Mr. Zimmerman: We are setting a precedent and we want to be careful.

Mr. Field: In the past our concern was about maintenance, and the Town’s responsibility.

Mr. Mitchell: Yes, I have talked to the County about that.

Chairman Jensen: Have you asked the school whether they will send a school bus into the property or make any kids walk to the end of the private road?

Mr. Mitchell: We have not.

Chairman Jensen: It would be a good idea. They will probably treat it like a mobile home park, where they do go in, but you should cover your bases. Board, is this concept going to work?

Mr. Field: I would encourage the continued exploration of the idea.

Chairman Jensen: Anyone disagree?

Mr. Caulin: I think it’s good to explore it, I have no other concerns.

Mr. Mitchell: Should our attorney talk to the Town’s attorney?

Chairman Jensen It would be advisable. Do you have any questions of us?

Mr. Mitchell: If this moves forward, we will need a variance on the building height issue.

Atty. Auffredou: Something different from the established height is a zoning board concern. The Town Board is considering some changes to the height code and some other concerns, but the changes are not imminent.

Mr. Zimmerman: Should it go back to emergency services if we change the height?

Mr. Patricke: They made the calculation for the biggest ladder truck, so it will still be adequate.

I. Cerrone Subdivision

Chairman Jensen: Would the applicant briefly describe the project?.

Tom Nace, Nace Engineering: The land is on the North side of Reservoir Road, West of the power lines. There are 45 lots, a simplistic design, and a long, deep, narrow property. On site individual septic, Town water. There will be capacity for Town water, but individual wells are shown because they might be used for early building permits, before Town water is in adequate supply. For grading, we have four basins, preceded by sediment deposit filters.

Chairman Jensen: Any comment from the public?

Mr. Tardif of 206 Reservoir Road: Where are the entrance and exit roads?

Mr. Nace: The driveway is next to the fire hydrant to the South, opposite the power line. It is about 5 1/2 properties East of the entrance road to the South. The second entrance road is just opposite the second fire hydrant on the south side.

Mr. Tardif: As Woodscape has to use Town water, these guys should have to use it too.

Mr. Nace: We will be connecting as soon as possible, the wells are shown if necessary before Town water is available.

Mr. Tardif: How big are your sites?

Mr. Nace: 25-40,000 sq feet, between half and one acre.

Pat Winne, 220 Reservoir Road: What style of homes?

Mr. Patricke: He built Sherwood Forest. There are different styles. My understanding is that they are most likely colonials.

Mr. Winne: Are the single family?

Mr. Patricke: Yes

Mr. Tardif: Are they maintenance lots like at Woodscape?

Mr. Nace: No.

Mr. Patricke: I believe there are intended to be like the Cerrone development on William Street.

Chairman Jensen: We do not have architectural review in the Town of Moreau, the developer only has to meet the zoning requirements. We can not tell him what size or style to build.

Bob Corey, 566 Gansevoort Road: They will have to use municipal water?

Chairman Jensen: Dept of Health will make them use municipal water when it’s available.

Mr. Patricke: They just have to provide that they could use wells, so that they don’t have to wait a year for the tower to be finished to build the houses. They don’t actually want to use wells.

Mr. Field: I am correct that it’s the water tower that’s causing the wait?

Mr. Patricke: Correct. Water lines will be operable in another 2-3 months. The tower is pending the weather.

Mr. Winne: Once you have a well, can you force people to go to Town water?

Atty. Auffredou: It depends upon the requirements of the water district per the Town Board and Dept. of Health. In this case, the developer will connect them to the water never mind the homeowner’s wishes.

Mr. Nace: The pipes are already there, the connection will be part of the infrastructure. We just may not be able to turn those services on.

Mr. Winne: But if they have a well, there is nothing to stop them from using it.

Atty. Auffredou: There’s nothing to stop them from using it for some things, but the Dept. of Health usually will not allow them to be used for domestic service to avoid cross- contamination.

Mr. Patricke: They will not want to drill a well.

Mr. Nace: We certainly hope not to drill any wells.

Chairman Jensen: Would it be appropriate for us to condition that the connect as soon as water is available?

Atty. Auffredou: You can.

Chairman Jensen: Can we require a bond?

Atty. Auffredou: You can.

Gail Dzailo of Reservoir Road: Can Reservoir Road handle this traffic increase, with the additional Michaels Group houses? Have there been traffic studies?

Mr. Nace: There will not be much traffic over time.

Mrs. Dzailo: I wonder if there will be traffic lights on Route 9 or anything.

Mr. Nace: I don’t think it’s warranted at this point at either intersection. I suppose in the future there might be. It takes a lot of traffic to warrant a light.

Mr. Winne: I won’t let my kids on that road, it is dangerous. There are no street lights, lines or shoulders. There have been accidents. I do think added congestion will cause a problem with the high speeds.

Chairman Jensen: High posted limits or what people do?

Mr. Winne: The posted speed is 30.

Mr. Tardif: There are also ATV’s.

Mr. Winne: The intersection of Route 9 and Reservoir is already difficult. On Gansevoort Road, there is a hedge and it is hard to see. The new Michaels Group has a second egress on Reservoir.

Mr. Nace: Could we request a study or additional police?

Mr. Winne: People come off of Route 9 at fast speeds, turn wide, and come into traffic.

Mr. Dzailo: I don’t see how you can add this development to the Michaels Group without doing a traffic study. Also, regarding groundwater. What’s happening to the water table with all this development and the water lines coming in?

Mr. Nace: We have studied only the small area we are developing, but we have found that very little difference is made in the height of the water table. This is sandy soil with good drainage. It is almost immeasurable impact.

Mr. Dzailo: There is standing water at Woodscape.

Mr. Nace: Test pits have shown that in the lowest areas groundwater was down 6-7 feet. Millions of gallons spread over the area of the subdivision, less than an inch.

Mr. Patricke: You are right about the basins at Woodscape. They were supposed to be dry. Two are not, and three are most of the time. The fine sand appears to be holding the water just in the basins, but not around the basins.

Mr. Winne: They are supposed to be for peak times?

Mr. Patricke: Yes. It’s being explored. Whatever fix is found will be incorporated in this one.

Mr. Winne: Is one of those basins right on the road?

Mr. Nace: It’s about 50 feet back.

Mr. Winne: Will there be green space?

Mr. Nace: We intend to leave space.

Mr. Winne: Is there a requirement?

Mr. Field: They may propose it, and whatever they propose they are bound to.

Mr. Winne: Do houses already facing the road end up looking at a drainage pit?

Mr. Nace: That’s why we place it back 50 feet. They are mowable slopes.

Mr. Zimmerman: Who’s going to do that?

Atty. Auffredou: It is safe to say that the Town Board does not like the retention basins. Options are limited for conforming to DEC requirements. In this case the Town really doesn’t like to own them, which is what’s being proposed. It would be good to talk to the applicant about the alternatives, because eventually the applicant will want to dedicate the road to the Town, and all the stuff that comes with it.

Mr. Field: Why don’t they like them?

Atty. Auffredou: The look, the liability, cost of maintenance. It is Town water and the Town is responsible for the runoff, but they don’t like being caught with the long-term costs.

Mr. Nace: A homeowners association might maintain it, but they are unlikely to do the major stuff like clearing silt, etc.

Mr. Patricke: I think the Town will want an easement to maintain it.

Atty. Auffredou: We do that in some places. In Woodscape, the homeowners’ association owns the basins, and the Town can maintain it’s infrastructure, but ultimate responsibility is on the HoA. The Town recognizes that they have to do the big stuff. They don’t want to be responsible if there is an accident in the basin or other liability.

Mr. Field: What happens when there’s an accident on the road?

Atty. Auffredou: They won is very concerned.

Mr. Field: We may drive the costs up too much.

Mr. Nace: With newer DEC regs, we are very limited in what we can do.

Mr. Patricke: I think we fully intend to maintain them, just not own them. We want them as flat as can be. If we own them we want them as flat as can be, and we are going to fence them. No one wants that.

Mr. Nace: We also have to look at frozen conditions.

Chairman Jensen: Any other questions?

Mr. Tardif: Length from start to finish?

Mr. Nace: 4-5months to build a road, 12- 14 houses per year= at least three years.

It could be different.

Mr. Winne: Is there a set minimum size?

Mr. Patricke: The Town minimum 800 sq feet, 1200 in some areas. This is an R2 district.

Mr. Zimmerman: This was a question from last time.

Mr. Patricke: It is 32,500ft. w/o public water and 22,500 with public water.

Mr. Field: Minimum flooring is 800 sq ft.

Atty. Auffredou: Mr. Cerrone’s not going to build that.

Mr. Nace: Not in this market.

Mrs. Dzailo: Will you leave any trees?

Mr. Nace: It depends on the house and where on the lot it is situated. The buyer has a say in how much is cleared, but the trend is towards keeping more trees.

Mrs. Dzailo: We have had the forest for 35 years and it is a concern.

Mr. Nace: We do try to keep as much buffer as we can.

Mr. Dzailo: Is there a buffer in the plans?

Mr. Nace: We could try.

Mr. Field: The Town doesn’t enforce this.

Mr. Patricke: If it’s in the drawing, it will be enforced.

Mr. Field: The residents of Reservoir Road also have the option of keeping their buffer zones treed.

Mr. Patricke: The developers will cut a small amount of trees because it’s costly. The buyers will do what they want.

Chairman Jensen: Any questions?

Mr. Winne: Could the egresses be located away from existing houses’ front windows?

Mr. Nace. I can take a look in the field and place a stake for you to look at.

Mr. Winne: There are other places where houses are further apart.

Mr. Nace: If it’s a problem, we’ll see what we could do. I will go stake out where the center of the road outbound road will be, so you can see where headlights will be shining.

Mr. Tardif: Price range?

Mr. O’Connor : About what the houses on William Street sold for.

Mr. Patricke: The last phase started at 169,900 and went to ¼ million, and that was 2 years ago.

Mr. O’Connor: Average price of new construction is 2005 was $249,000.

Chairman: Any questions from the Board?

Mr. Patricke: Do you have entrance signage on the drawings?

Mr. Nace: No, we’ll have to find out and add it.

Mr. O’Connor: Comparable to the other?

Mr. Patricke: There isn’t one on the other.

Chairman Jensen: Let’s go to the EAF.

Atty. Auffredou: Do we have Tim Burley’s comments on this? County referral?

Mr. O’Connor: We would like to get the preliminary approval so we can go to the Health Dept.

Atty. Auffredou : I would like to delay SEQR until we have the County and engineering review and the decision on the ownership of the storm water basins.

Mr. Field motioned to table the hearing pending satisfactory response to these concerns, and Mr. Dickinson seconded The motioned passes unanimously.

Chairman Jensen. We will see you on July 17.

Mr. O’Connor: Wasn’t that why we adjourned last month?

Chairman Jensen: We adjourned last time to get the decision on Carner blue butterflies and because SEQR required 30 days notice.

Mr. O’Connor: The Town would maintain an HoA?

Atty. Auffredou: The Town maintains infrastructure, ownership and vegetation responsibility is on the HoA. You may want to talk to the Town Board because there is resistance to the Town having ownership of the storm water retention basins.

Mr. O’Connor: My experience with HoA is a 3-5 month process to get it running. Developers own it until then.

Mr. Patricke: That is my understanding.

Mr. O’Connor: If we are approved with the developer owning the basins until the HoA is running, we can build. Once there is an HoA, we can’t sell lots without HoA approval.

Atty. Auffredou: When the developer is ready to deed over to HoA, it doesn’t impact the Town.

.

Mr. Field: Drywells have a life span. Who replaces them?

Atty. Auffredou: The Town.

Mr. Field: A settling basin collects stuff and needs clearing. Who’s gonna do that?

Atty. Auffredou: The Town. They have an easement.

Mr. O’Connor: All we are accomplishing is a transfer of liability.

Chairman Jensen: Remember the Town is going to fence it to protect themselves, and this avoids that.

Mr. O’Connor: Who says we aren’t going to fence it?

Mr. Patricke: Few do.

Mr. Caulin: Isn’t William St. fenced?

Mr. Patricke: Yes, because we made them.

Mr. Nace: The Town engineer has it?

Mr. Patricke: I will check.

Mr. O’Connor: So it will be August before we get final approval.

Chairman Jensen: Possibly.

Motion to adjourn made at 9:00 by Mr. Field, Seconded by Mr. Zimmerman. The motion passed unanimously. Next meeting July 17, 2006.

Respectfully submitted,

Tricia Andrews

Recording Secretary

Cc: Zoning Board, Town Board, Town Clerk, Supt. of Highways, Building Inspector, Assessor, Saratoga County Planning Board